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Blood Vow

Happiness is success... (Buddha)

Saturday, February 06, 2010

What is up with some players and Dark Angels?

Dark Angels were one of my first armies and I still love them dearly. There is just something very cool about Marines in long flowing robes. I even once had a Fallen Angels army that took 8th place in the Charlotte GW GT back in 2003. My how time flies and things change. I was horrified when I read the new Dark Angels codex. I still play Deathwing occassionally and even brought mine to the Adepticon Gladiator match last year... They fared pretty darn well too, beating one of those Super Titan lists.

I have been following a thread over on Dakka's YMDC forum regarding a poll about Dark Angels using the new wargear from the Space Marine codex. We all know that the new Space Wolves have access to 3+ stormshields and 2 shot cyclone missile launchers so what's the big deal if your opponent plays Dark Angels and wants to use the new wargear? I am willing to bet the new Blood Angels will also have access to 3+ stormshields and 2 shot cyclone missile launchers. If somebody asked me I'd say sure but you must use the new smoke launchers and PotMS as well. It seems some people have gotten their shorts all twisted up in a big knot saying fearless troops of terminators with the new wargear would be broken. I say that's just a bunch of bunk. I play Deathwing and I'm pretty darn good with them so I know their limitations. Any five man unit in the game that is single wound & T4 will die to torrents of small arms fire. The all around 3+ save would help but to play a competitive Deathwing army it's not just about putting as many terminators with 3+ stormshields on the table. The 2 shot missile launcher is actually much more of an advantage in my opinion. It's all about popping rhinos and chimeras now and that extra shot makes a huge difference since it basically doubles your odds. People complaining about the stormshields simply can't see the trees from the forest.

While you can win a lot of games with Deathwing it's always hard to crank out the massacres and that in and of itself limits the performance of the army at a tournament versus other veteran gamers. Sure everyone will thinks it's cool to bring this fluffy army but they will also be glad you did since the perception is DW is an easy army to beat, not an easy army to win games.

Of all the special characters in the game to me no one is more deserving of a 3+ stormshield as Belial... 3 attacks base and he can't even carry the fabled Sword of Secrets? What the hell was Jervis thinking? To me people that won't allow Dark Angel players to use the new wargear simply want every advantage they can muster to win. That's how I see it.



Magilla Gurilla said...

Excellent Post GBF.
The funny thing about the Dark Angels and even the Grey Knight Terminators is that sooner or later they will get a new codex.....although I am betting on later.
When this happens, they will get 3+ Storm Shield and 2 Shot Cyclone missile launchers....heck, I am willing to be that their bike squads will even get more closely aligned with the current bike Squads from CODEX:SM.
I find it interesting that people are so unwilling to give their opponent a fair shot. If that is the only way you can win, you need to find another hobby, or remake your army.
There are so many more important things to worry about!

Green Blow Fly said...

I found it rather amusing someone over on Dakka accused me of cheating because I ask my opponents if I can use the new wargear... Hilarious!


MorbidlyObeseMonkey said...

The problem I see with using the new cyclone missile launchers is that the new codices pay for them. DA cyclone is 20 points while codex SM pays 30. So if you paid 30 points for it then I'd be fine. Of course, you could always use the Space Wolves codex with Logan.

Green Blow Fly said...

Funny enough in the Dakka thread some people were venting on counts as armies. Crazy... A counts as army won Mechanicon.


Eric said...

Its not always an issue of trying to hold back the DA players. As Monkey pointed out, the current Marine gear is written with certain point costs and other factors.

Its also not always an issue with being "broken". I personally do not think DA would be that much better even with the better gear.

Asking to make any changes for friendly games shouldn't ever be described as cheating. That's a very unfair generalization. Its still up to your opponent whether the changes are acceptable, though.

If another player does not want to let you do this, they do not have to. If you think they are in any way obligated to do so, then you have severely twisted "The Most Important Rule". The rule says that we can make changes when both players agree. It does not require any player to acquiesce to the other, entitle one to a 4+ roll to change rules, or otherwise condemn any player that wishes to use only the rules as published by GW.

That is the heart of the matter. GW has not yet published something new for Dark Angels, and DA players are stuck with that book until the alternative arrives. It really sucks, but they aren't the only players with an out of date book.

So you see, its not any other players fault about DA. It lies solely with GW. Maybe you should find a way to let them know how much a new book is needed(and that they'll spike in DA sales).

Please don't feel like I'm singling you out, but I'd like to address one of you comments. If the "only way to win" is to make you play by the rules, then you might have some philosophical issues towards gaming itself.

Green Blow Fly said...


The point is if you are playing a friendly game and don't let your opponent use the new wargear then you are sending a clear message you are hard up for the win. It's not about what the rules say dude, it is about being cool and having fun.


Eric said...

"then you are sending a clear message you are hard up for the win."

No, you are not. It's not very fair of you to jump to this conclusion. After all, someone could just as easily shoot that accusation back at the people who want to do the "not exactly legal stuff". But that would ALSO be unfair.

Some people might not be comfortable with rules changes. They might really like the game the way it is.

In the same way that you would not be cheating by asking, they are not cheating by saying no.

Also, why does the coolness of your opponent and the fun of the game seem to be tied up so much into your chances of winning? For someone who speaks out against folks who only care about winning, the chances of victory always seem to be a big factor for you.

Green Blow Fly said...

* Shakes head *

Eric you are a power gamer. It's obvious.

Have you ever even read the DA FAQ???


Eric said...

Resort to labeling me a power gamer all ya like, it doesn't change the fact that your DA whims are not legal. Easy fix though, don't play. There's no need to name-call and brow beat folks until they allow it.

The DA FAQ does not tell us how they, the writers, want us to play it. Such a shame, as its their material. Not altogether bad though, as they've left it open so that anyone can convince their friends without any "FAQ says no" muddying their fun.

Sadly, the FAQ doesn't say yes either. They merely mention The Most Important Rule, which is already there for your use.

What we have now are two different DA army lists: the one you can play with your friends, and the one you can play at tournaments. (Unless TOs write up errata for DA players to use, which is within their purview.)

If it makes ya feel better to accuse me of being a power gamer, go ahead. I know differently.
-I could never have fun playing the "spam" lists. (boring) Though I take good units (not the ones you folks call broken) in twos, in case one dies.
-I paint my own minis.
-Bookcase full of Black Library books.
-I write fluff for my armies and name my characters.

But, because I really enjoy GW's game the way they print it, I need some kind of label that, what... explains away my viewpoint?

And yet it comes back to winning: how much others are trying to keep you from winning, how much others value winning...

I really wish folks could stop trying to differentiate between gamers and hobbyists. We could just enjoy this game together. The problem arises: we're not quite all playing the same game are we?

This is why I advocate sticking to GW's rules as closely as possible...

Green Blow Fly said...

Okay I am a complete tool and you are the GW saint. We throw rose petals at your feet and sacrifice our innocent in your name. I am so jealous of you!

Green Blow Fly said...

Tell us more how awesome you are Eric.

Eric said...

Go ahead. Resort to sarcasm over discussion. Create content from my comments that does not exist.

Are these reasons why its only been the two of us exchanging? Where is your readership?

Green Blow Fly said...

Snarky nerd rage in the morning! Awesome!

Keep it come lounge boy.